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[21:46]<rxrcr>Kog, only when you're not here is it truely boring
[21:46]<fyfuym-syfggag>I am one of those people
[21:46]<fyfuym-syfggag>:)
[21:46]<kjr>Liquid-Silence: was just about to say that heh
[21:47]<zgzzcygnv>vulture - based on its extreme inefficiency, undue complexity, and unstability?
[21:47]<fyfuym-syfggag>Kog I dont mind admitting to it
[21:47]<fyfuym-syfggag>the whole prison zebra thing was abit ghei though
[21:47]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: that didn't answer my question, but anyway. In what way is it inefficient or unduely complicated?
[21:47]<zgzzcygnv>for the average length irc message, there is usually more overhead than actual message
[21:47]<kjr>chaka: "Ain't no sunshine when (kog's) gone, it's not warm when (kog's) away. Ain't no sunshine..."
[21:47]<zgzzcygnv>also
[21:47]<zgzzcygnv>there isnt a constant format of each message
[21:48]<zgzzcygnv>like the first message to the server is some ident crap
[21:48]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: considered many other protocols & their respective efficiencies, I doubt it's exceptional.
[21:48]<vufvuzn>ident is a separate protocol..
[21:48]<kjr>vulture: he's apparently never read FTP or SMTP ;)
[21:48]<kjr>there actually is BNF for a message too
[21:48]<kjr>it's sitting in the RFC
[21:48]<zgzzcygnv>BNF?
[21:48]<zgzzcygnv>also, IRC is a space-delimated protocol, and its text based
[21:48]<kjr>a definition
[21:48]<zgzzcygnv>both of those = bad
[21:49]<kjr>many of our protocols are text based...
[21:49]<azyfm>most are
[21:49]<azyfm>in terms of traffic, anyway
[21:49]<kjr>and if you could run IRC in 1984, I somehow doubt it's too inefficient
[21:49]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: um.. how many 'net protocols aren't space delimited & text based?
[21:49]<zgzzcygnv>instead of taking 20 bytes to describe a hostname, use 4 and send an ip address instead
[21:49]<kjr>you can run several thousand concurrent clients with a minimum of bandwidth
[21:49]<vufvuzn>all the core..
[21:49]<zgzzcygnv>vulture, the one i'm developing is
[21:50]<zgzzcygnv>anyway, theyre all inefficient
[21:50]<kjr>AnarkiNet: that would be called lossy "compression"
[21:50]<kjr>AnarkiNet: you lose data without the hostmask
[21:50]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: mail, web, etc.. the Web(/Internet) runs on this stuff, and has done for a very long time
[21:50]<zgzzcygnv>yep and like i said, its inefficient
[21:50]<azyfm>the YMSG protocol is binary, it's quite a mess
[21:50]<vufvuzn>Kog: I think he's refering to sending an IP address as text instead of 4 bytes
[21:50]<zgzzcygnv>not really
[21:51]<zgzzcygnv>a hostmask is a waste imho
[21:51]<kjr>AnarkiNet: an IP is definately not informative enough
[21:51]<azyfm>you have humble opinions? :-O
[21:51]<zgzzcygnv>informative enough for what?
[21:51]<kjr>you could use something like a fingerprint
[21:51]<zgzzcygnv>Arild - for IRC its a waste
[21:51]<kjr>AnarkiNet: banning people
[21:52]<zgzzcygnv>why does the op have to keep track of how precise a ban is? the server should take care of that
[21:52]<vufvuzn>hostmasks are very "sparse" - that's why IPv6 uses a length specification instead
[21:52]<kjr>I'm once again forced to ask the obvious question - if it's such a waste, how'd it work so well in 1984 when computers were 1mhz, and routing equipment was glacial?
[21:52]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: because sometimes an op wants to choose how precise a ban is..
[21:52]<kjr>AnarkiNet: because of things like NAT
[21:52]<kjr>AnarkiNet: if two users are coming from the same IP, how do you only ban one?
[21:52]<zgzzcygnv>Kog IRC was invented in 1988, right?
[21:52]<kjr>1984
[21:53]<zgzzcygnv>Kog, they would STILL both have the same hostmask
[21:53]<kjr>no, they wouldn't both have the same hostmask
[21:53]<zgzzcygnv>yes man
[21:53]<zgzzcygnv>they would
[21:53]<kjr>because hostmask includes nick and user
[21:53]<zgzzcygnv>...
[21:53]<zgzzcygnv>thats the whole ident string, the hostmask is the part after the @
[21:53]<fyfuym-syfggag>AnarkiNet no they wount
[21:53]<kjr>AnarkiNet: you should go read some RFCs
[21:53]<kjr>AnarkiNet: and get back to me on that
[21:54]<kjr>the other thing is that after the initial introduction it's always safe to use things like tokens
[21:54]<kjr>and most things DO use tokens
[21:54]<y-gz>*!*@* -> hostmask ?
[21:54]<zgzzcygnv>anyway it doesnt change the fact that IRC is flawed because its built on stuff that is outdated and inefficient
[21:54]<kjr>AnarkiNet: and how would you make it more efficient?
[21:54]<zgzzcygnv>i just fucking said it
[21:54]<zgzzcygnv>make it binary, you'll cut the size in half
[21:54]<zgzzcygnv>also
[21:55]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: um.. it's not outdate. someone could have invented binary protocols for all these things (IRC and otherwise) back when it all started - and it would've been far more important then htan it is now
[21:55]<zgzzcygnv>do things like use a id -> hostname/mask table
[21:55]<vufvuzn>in what way is it outdated?
[21:55]<kjr>vulture: I keep asking the same question ;)
[21:55]<fyfuym-syfggag>heh
[21:55]<zgzzcygnv>so instead of sending 20 bytes of a hostmask, just use the ID and the client will fill in the details based on the id -> hostname/mask table it recieved upon connect
[21:55]<vufvuzn>inefficient, maybe. So are many core protocols - and that efficiency was sacraficed for good reason waay back when.
[21:56]<zgzzcygnv>vulture - text-based protocols take more time to parse
[21:56]<kjr>AnarkiNet: after the user is introduced, it may not be the case that the client always gets the full hostmask
[21:56]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: That doesn't explain why you think it's outdated.
[21:56]<zgzzcygnv>bleh you people don't get it
[21:56]<fyfuym-syfggag>Moridin8 join me on the couch?
[21:56]<zgzzcygnv>keep using your crappy http, irc, etc
[21:56]<kjr>or you suck at explaining ;)
[21:56]<fyfuym-syfggag>we can hold hands :D
[21:56]<vufvuzn>What advances in protocol design have occured in the last 20 years that allow you to make something "better" that couldn't have been done just as easily back tehn?
[21:56]<kjr>AnarkiNet: although, I gotta say HTTP is definately getting hacked to all shit heh
[21:56]<vufvuzn>AnarkiNet: Answer that ^^
[21:56]<mjzymygo>Liquid-Silence: nah... not unless you got some nice skunkweed
[21:57]<fyfuym-syfggag>Moridin8 I only got home grown here
[21:57]<vufvuzn>Kog: yeah, Web "2.0" shit annoys me (though I do use GMail, so I guess I can't complain too much)
[21:57]<kjr>let's talk about something truly inefficient and worthless - AJAX
[21:57]<fyfuym-syfggag>:D
[21:57]<mjzymygo>kog: ajax morons?
[21:57]<vufvuzn>I do wish people would deploy something like JWS (or a .NET equivalent if that's what it takes) & move on.
[21:57]<kjr>Moridin8: yeah, all those people that just don't seem to understand that HTTP is fucking stateless
[21:57]<mjzymygo>=/
[21:57]<fyfuym-syfggag>*cough cough*

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